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Optimizing User Journeys, A Masterplan for Email Automation Success

Jane Portman, Co-founder and CEO of Userlist

In this podcast episode, Harshit Gupta, Director of Business Alliances at WYTLABS, interviews Jane Portman, Co-founder and CEO of Userlist, an email marketing platform specializing in B2B SaaS. Jane shares her journey from a UI/UX consultant to starting Userlist, emphasizing the platform’s focus on utilizing customer data for personalized email marketing tailored to SaaS companies. They discuss Userlist’s unique features, including dynamic segmentation, real-time API integration, and workflow builders. Jane provides insights into the challenges and importance of educating users on effective email marketing strategies, highlighting the role of personalization and dynamic segmentation. The conversation concludes with reflections on Userlist’s impact on SaaS companies and challenges in measuring the effectiveness of email marketing.

Userlist transforms SaaS communication, personalizing email engagement for effective lead conversion. Simplifying one-click interactions, it fuels business growth through tailored messaging.

Jane Portman
Co-founder and CEO of Userlist

Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of WYTPOD. My name is Harshit and I’m the Director of Business Alliances at WYTLABS. We are a digital agency specializing in SaaS and e-commerce SEO. And I have got Co-founder and CEO of Userlist, Jane Portman, with me today. Now, Userlist is an e-mail marketing platform with B2B SaaS. A big welcome to you, Jane. I’m so happy to host you today.

Thank you, Harshit. Glad to be here today.

Now, before we dive into all the awesome things, Userlist does, can you please let the viewers know a little bit about you and your professional journey?

Oh, like a little bit about myself as a person? Yeah. That’s a great question. It’s funny that I’m also a very avid podcaster. One thing I hear all the time is people saying that’s a great question, and here I am. Well, the first question is just that I’m a UI/UX consultant by trade. I’ve been building my brand and the consultancy under the name of UI Breakfast since 2012, 2013, I think. I have written books, have done some speaking gigs, definitely, lots of design work, and wrote the trend of product tax consulting, so I have a book about that. But that was ages ago. I always worked with other SaaS companies and as clients always went to founder conferences. My dream was to have a SaaS of my own. I seg wayed into that. The first SaaS was not successful, so I spent a year building a small productivity tool that just didn’t go anywhere very far. So sold that one and we started Userlist in 2017, together with my co-founder, Benedict. He’s the CTO, the brilliant engineering brain. He was the developer for that first startup, so we had a chance to work together.

What was? That first startup called?

It was called Tiny Reminder. You don’t know the name because it didn’t get traction. I made a lot of mistakes, and I was eager to fix those mistakes with the new business, and that’s what we did. With the user list, everything was more serious. It’s a platform that we had to be serious with from day one. We had to incorporate before all the legal papers were in place from day one. We had to polish the MVP because it does email marketing automation for our clients. It sends emails to their customers. We have to be all in and serious about this. Spent a couple of years. 2019, we launched out of beta, and here we are. It’s been a challenging journey. We didn’t intend to build an email service provider or an ESP email marketing platform but turned out that it’s easier to have that label so that the positioning is super clear inside people’s heads. So, if that helps, Mailchimp is a general-purpose email marketing tool. Convertkit is an email marketing tool for bloggers. Clavio is for e-commerce and Userlist is for SaaS. That’s how you can see this in your head.

It does the same classic things but with a heavy spin on how SaaS companies reach customer data and how they can use this email marketing to power their product-led growth.

Got you. What inspired you to create a Userlist? What is the unique value it brings to SaaS companies and comparison to these traditional email marketing platforms?

The original inspiration was based on Intercom. With my first startup, I didn’t have a tool. I couldn’t find any other tools except Intercom that could show me the list of my users, who they are, what they do, and send them behavior-based communication. It was just not an obvious problem. There was no obvious solution out there in the market. So being the naive girl that I was, I thought that was an amazing problem to solve. And it’s definitely like a mission-critical product for the business. It’s not a vitamin. It’s an essential infrastructure piece. So, we had a greater chance to be perceived seriously and have less churn and overall, a more serious business because of that. So, the idea was to get that customer data in about behavior and then do great things based on that: email, in-app messages, or anything else we can come up with. We did add email from day one. Then a couple of years later, we added in-app notifications as another channel. That’s like little informational bubbles that appear inside your product. And then we arrived at the clarity that positioning ourselves as an email marketing platform is easier to deal with. That’s what we’re calling ourselves.

The product itself, though, has been more mostly evolving versus Katie Pivots here and there.

Okay. Pretty sure.

The second part of your question was, how exactly do we bring value compared to other tools? I think the answer there lies also in this area of customer data. Any other email marketing takes you to the point of sale. You download the book, you buy something in the online store, and that’s the epitome of email marketing. In SaaS, that’s just the beginning. There’s so much more. And once somebody becomes your user, you instantly have more information about their behavior. We’re not speaking about fingerprints or confidential data. We’re talking about what they’re doing. We can see their success metrics. We can see their activity inside the product. There is so much you can do based on that activity. Compared to other tools, yes, you can hack together a user onboarding flow in Mailchimp. You can do that yourself. You can hard code, or email, that’ll be fine. But after a while, you’ll stumble into certain limitations. Mailchimp doesn’t work with customer data in a good way at all. While we do support rich customer data, we have events and properties, and our properties can have events on them. We also support relationships between users and companies. We completely help you replicate the data model that you have inside your product.

That’s how these SaaS-specific tools are different from general-purpose email marketing platforms. That’s, I think, the key. It’s all about data and that introduces complexity to the business because you need to get that data in. Nevertheless, it’s really powerful. It’s a very powerful instrument for their growth.

What is the typical process? How do you collect the data? How is the client? How exactly does the client journey go within the platform?

We don’t collect the data per se. We have an API endpoint and you will send the information you consider necessary about the user alongside their unique identifier to our API as soon as You can do this when something changes or you can do this every hour. It depends on your infrastructure, and how often you want to update the data, but there is no import or export per se. It’s always a continuously updated integration with your backend. We always have the most up-to-date list of your customers and what they’re doing. That’s the idea. That’s the biggest misconception. It’s very often that a marketer could visit our dashboard and say, Where’s the import button? We do have the import button because we also support marketing MLS. But for customer email, you just need the integration. You need to plan the data you need and take that tracking plan to your engineers. Those will spend a couple of hours setting up the integration and then you will have these live data streaming to the email marketing platform.

That’s clever because you escape the legalities and you’re walking directly to the first-party data of your clients. Then you have to be very cautious. You can’t just Concerning security and everything, there is zero possibility of a breach. We understand that.

We’re very conscious about the data for our clients, but they decide what they need to send to us. We don’t embed their product and then sneak around. If they need three properties, and three success metrics on each user, that’s all we get. We don’t get mailing addresses unless they want to. We don’t get anything sensitive. Of course, the email address gets sparse because otherwise, it would not make sense. However, we do have a number of customers who don’t even send email addresses. For example, there is a use case when someone runs an app in the marketplace. I don’t know, let’s say, Trello plugins. I don’t think it’s the case with Trello plugins specifically, but some store that allows you to just be an add-on, sometimes don’t give you the email address. Another fun case was there was an industry where it was explicitly prohibited to email users, so they could very well leverage our in-app notifications as a channel, but they just didn’t even send emails or they didn’t even send email addresses to us. Every business is so special in that regard to how they deal with privacy.

Okay, great. Could you share how a user who writes specifically supports and integrates the strategies behind product-led growth for these sales businesses?

The way the product itself is unique is that it’s not like Rocket Ship Different, but it supports the reach customer data that we described. We’re also pretty advanced in terms of how you can segment things, the filters, the event, and all the conditions that you set. This is all integrated details. But sometimes in very expensive enterprise-grade tools, they claim to do the same thing and they do. But there are some differences in, oh, they don’t allow for this combination in the filters. Oh, they don’t allow for this type of trigger to happen. One bright example is that we have company-level triggers for the email campaign. So, if something happens on the company level, you can then email all users in that team. That’s very powerful for B2B SaaS. That’s one example. That’s on the product side. Another one is our huge educational mission. Because of this data aspect, it seems a challenging topic for marketers to just orchestrate this automation, understand what triggers they need, and how to structure their campaigns. We’re on a never-ending educational quest. We have a special system like a framework that’s based on lifecycle segmentation. We do have blueprints for different pricing models.

We do tons of hand-holding. We have all kinds of planning materials. It’s never-ending. We’re continuously improving the library on the mission to help our users use the platform. Because it’s my co-founder, Benedict says it’s like selling Swiss knives. You can either make a wonderful dinner with it or you can cut yourself easily. We have to sell this, not sell, and provide educational material so they can cook a wonderful dinner.

What channels do you leverage to educate your existing customer base?

I’d say the most powerful ones are our email marketing automation. We have a strong lead nurture funnel from our website and we have a strong onboarding sequence that educates them. This is a big channel. Another one, if we can, we try and get people on calls because it’s very specific to people’s businesses. During demos and onboarding calls, a great deal of time goes into unpacking their current situation and figuring out what’s the best way to integrate, what exactly they can be tracking, and how exactly they can structure their campaigns. I’d say these are the most powerful channels that we employ Yeah, that probably would be correct to say.

Yeah, as you recall, is definitely, are you able to steal that channel? How many customer service or customer success executives do you have at a place to take care of that?

We don’t have a big team at the moment. The whole team is six people. The way we do this, I handle the sales calls and the strategy calls myself. We do have a customer engineer, Michael, who does the rest of the heavy lifting in the support inbox. He provides people with specific technical recommendations while I handle the strategy part. It’s a very two-way process because I’m also the one who runs the blog and understands what topics and things we should write about. While we are coaching people to write, I’m also continuously learning how to get the message across so that they understand. That has just been getting better. When we see competitors starting similar companies, I’m like, you’re going to learn so much and the only time can help with that.

Can you provide an example of a SaaS company that significantly benefited from using the platform and how its platform transformed its approach to email marketing, your consultation, and your platform?

We don’t have any revolutionary case studies, but it’s common, that our customers experience a sense of relief that they finally have come across a platform that supports their data model and everything just works. Also, there’s a hidden benefit. We are relatively young. Well, we’re six years old, but we are still relatively younger than the mature incumbents of the market. So, we were able to watch the mistakes made by them in the UX and everywhere and make some better decisions in the product. It’s usually the relief that they say. We’ve had some customers increase onboarding rates by introducing onboarding sequences. We had some customers use our done-for-you services and go from, oh, I don’t know what to do with my email marketing, to having customer loyalty campaigns and user onboarding campaigns in place. We’ve had some great stories there. I wish we had somebody with a big name say that they two did. That would be great. But you should understand that email is not like a silver bullet tool. It’s more like an essential channel that you should not ignore. It’s a big opportunity. So, for early-stage companies, it’s completely fine to just do with a small onboarding flow, hard coded in their email, that’s fine.

But eventually, when the volume grows, especially for product-led companies, when you have a huge volume through your trials, you can’t ignore the opportunity to have this conversion uplift. Sure, not everybody is a fan of receiving emails, but there will be a fraction of people who like your tone and things like that. You should not ignore the channel. It’s not a silver bullet, doesn’t provide instant returns. It takes time to set up and also can hurt your brand if you send too many emails. It’s like that’s with a knife. It’s not easy, but it should not be ignored. Email remains one of the most powerful channels.

Yeah, I agree with you. I would love to know how exactly the platform assists those SaaS companies in visualizing and mapping complex customer journeys. How crucial is this in nurturing user relationships?

For a few years, we’ve had classic campaigns in place, which were more like simple drip campaigns, with the only exception that you could still filter each message based on behavior. So, it was behavior-based, but we didn’t have the visual builder in place. This year, we added the Workflow Builder which you can see on the website. And of course, it’s an important feature for people to have because visual flows are just easier for our users to grasp. And also, allowed us to take this complex task of visualizing the journey and just breaking it into very easy-to-understand nodes. We call them nodes. Each block is super granular. There is a delay block, and there’s a condition block, like multiple splits, and A/B tests. You can build whatever you want with those versus we had before. And also, that gives us unlimited fantasy space for integrating other types of channels for integrations and doing other things. So definitely that was a big milestone for us this year to add the visual workflow builder. But even then, that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t plan. You should still sit down, and map out your lifecycle segmentation, the customer journey map that still is on the customer.

Okay. I would love to know because I was checking your site and somewhere across the platform enables a dynamic segmentation. I would love to know how pivotal is personalization in driving the engagement and conversations for these SaaS companies.

I’m glad that you brought up the dynamic segmentation. Segments are somewhat confusing because, in some older software, the segment is somewhere that’s a bucket where you put the people and they stay there manually. You do the job of that. In our case and any other modern software, segments are dynamic. A segment is set of filters, and if people match those filters and the conditions, they belong to this segment. If somebody has a pricing plan that equals basic, that means they belong to an active customer’s basic plan segment, so something like that. Once they stop having that criterion, they exit the segment. That’s the idea of dynamic segmentation. The why is important. It’s important because half of the software out there is based on tags. That’s in tags are dangerous. You apply tags, you remove tags, but it’s very often that you don’t remove tags because you forgot that in your automation or something like that. It just becomes a giant messy cloud of tags on each customer. That’s downright dangerous, and it doesn’t offer you any structure to the data. We don’t have tags at Useless at all. That may sound scary, but you can do without tags but have dedicated properties.

Instead of having a tag for attended webinar X, you will have a property, attended a webinar, and then the webinar name there. It’s just a much more structured way of doing the same thing but in a better way. Dynamic segmentation, lack of tags, or going from tags to proper property fields. That’s a very good step towards doing it the right way. Personalization, it’s a very wide thing to describe from the first name field to other things you can do. It can happen on many levels. You can have personalization on the campaign level. You can have an onboarding campaign for your, let’s say, you run your SaaS and you have three primary verticals like photographers, videographers, and somebody else. If you have a dramatically different thing to say, you can have three separate onboarding campaigns based on the segment they belong to, based on the industry. Or you can have one journey, but then for certain emails, you’ll be branching off and saying specific things based on their industry. That’s on the email level, that’s branching on the email level. The third way to do that is personalization within one email where you can use liquid tags to insert blocks of text specifically for that role.

There are different ways of doing that. Depending on your needs, depending on how you want to think about it, you can do it on different levels. The primary principle to apply is to minimize your work for yourself. If you find yourself writing three campaigns and those three campaigns have seven similar emails in them, that’s not the right way. That means you just need to be smarter. The goal here is to minimize manual copying and pasting and to just split there where you need to split and keep the rest unified. I guess that’s the approach.

Yeah, makes sense. I think that’s scalable also in our range. Would love to know what advice would you like to give to the SaaS marketers looking to conduct effective ABC tests and how they should ideally approach optimizing their strategies based on the results that they get from these tests.

A/B tests, I’m going to offer a controversial opinion here. Everybody thinks that they will do them very often, but there is a tiny little fraction of people who do. To be honest, we haven’t been going A/B testing left and right. It’s usually that this feature matters a lot when they buy a tool, so they want to be able to A/B test. But in the end, there is so much more to be done just foundationally without A/B testing that it’s left to the end. That said, the most classic ways to test headlines, are to know, to just get your style what works better for your audience. But then we do offer ways to test different journeys. Let’s say you can create a multiple split. We call this ABC testing because you can create up to five different pots with this random split node in the workflow, and you can assign different weights to them. You just think about what you want to test. It’s not just one message. You can create little sub-journeys on those spots and then you see how they perform. Then you stick with something, remove the rest, and move on with your life.

That’s as easy as that. Time-boxing that to one week is not enough, so I guess think about a decent period where you want to be testing that. Probably something measured in months is a saner approach versus just trying to test this in a week.

I’m one of those guys who would test a lot. I’ve never generated even a single sequence without testing. It might be a B variant to test out and see what happens.

That’s great. What was your most successful finding during a test?

You even look into multiple things. I look into the open rate, all those things. But I recently stumbled across a very good consultant around email marketing. I said, you know what? There are so many factors involved in events. The key metrics that you’re looking into, that doesn’t make sense. Just be good with your emails and follow the guidelines. That was the advice. I was always being so cautious about the emails and the sequences I was generating. But yeah, now my opinion is changing with respect to the approach that I had in the past on a computer. Maybe I’ll also skip using the A/B test features on the email platforms and just follow the guidelines and come all good e-mails and move forward.

Can I just add one more thought? There is a very common misconception that you can influence people’s behavior with emails. You can tell them one, two, or three steps and they will follow them. That just doesn’t work like that. So, the goal of modern long-term email marketing play is to be helpful as much as you can, be inspiring, and show up there in their inbox to build a connection with your brand. Long-term kind connection based on value so that you don’t insult them with hard sales, but you stay valuable. And even if they decide to skip activating this time, when they have the next project, they think, oh, that was super helpful and come back to you. That’s the thing you’re after. If you just kill the person with sales prompts, you’re just going to hurt your brand. That’s a very hard example. However instructional sequences, are overestimated. They’re not as effective as you think. Think of other ways to impact behavior, indirect ways.

That’s very well put. I like the idea. Let’s do this thing. I would love to know your opinion on the KPIs. What should SaaS marketers prioritize when measuring the success of their email marketing efforts?

Obviously, open. Let’s look at this. What do we have there as marketers at our disposal? We have open rates, click rates, and unsubscribe rates. That’s our tool set there. Open rates are a skewed metric, to be honest. Don’t look at open rates as an absolute trend, as an absolute number, but it’s worth looking at open rates as a trend. So, compare one to the other, you’ll get a better impression. Click rates, more or less. But again, there are types of emails that don’t require a click. Maybe that would be not so effective. And subscriptions, more or less. We do have conversion goals that help you attribute, specifically set a goal that’s considered a conversion and set a time frame after sending an email. So, you can use that. That’s more interesting. That’s a specific tool that’s doable. However, again, you can’t track whether that was influenced by their intrinsic motivation or by your email. There is also an interesting correlation that people who engage with emails are more motivated originally. They are just strong leads altogether. It doesn’t mean that your emails were great. It just means that you stumbled across a very motivated person and that person was eager to consume your email course.

For example, on Twitter, we had a fantastic testimonial. Somebody said users who took our email course using Userlist converted, let’s say, I don’t remember the number 2X better. I would love to have that as a testimonial if it was fair, but it’s not fair to say that. People who sign up for the course are just originally more motivated to be conversion leaders. You can see how this correlation and causation is not playing very correctly. It’s hard to measure the impact of email.

We would love to know what exactly are you doing for your marketing, basically for the company. What challenges are you facing?

Our biggest challenge is that Useless is a core piece of infrastructure for any SaaS company that’s tied into different integration, including the primary data integration, but also other connections with their website marketing, lead magnets, whatever. It’s like a CRM. It’s hard to rip that out and replace it with another one. That’s our primary barrier to entry. Somebody may like us better, but it’s a pretty big project to switch. Usually means that people are fed up with their existing platform. What we’ve learned is that there is a certain switching moment when they’re starting something new, like overhauling their automation, maybe introducing new user onboarding, or adopting a freemium model or something else that they want to do something significant and their existing tool just doesn’t cut it. That’s when they’re more motivated to switch. As you imagine, cold email outreach is not great at identifying as ripe people. Therefore, our marketing game is mostly inbound. We are very big on content. We run a very in-depth blog that’s not just optimized for SEO keywords, it’s also very niche and helpful. If you search for the same things online, you’re going to find very generic advice.

We try to go deep, provide strategy advice, and give email examples. We’re very proud of that. I think that works because people stay and read and Google likes that. We have a prominent blog; we have an email funnel that’s based on the lead magnet from there. We try to get people there, nurture them, and just keep in touch until some event comes along in their life, maybe a new project or such overhaul, as we discussed, that they can potentially be our customers. Then they book a demo and then they become customers. That’s probably the most typical funnel flow. Sometimes they skip on a demo, but we’ve learned that a demo is very helpful because of that strategy aspect that we discussed. We unpack their situation a lot.

Jane, tell me one thing you are a lot into educating your customers. I’m sure that you must be investing well on your content marketing front as well because you’re generating more blogs to in-depth blogs to educate your existing customers. We saw anyone new was trying to just explore. Do you have all the content writers in-house? Do you take the help of freelancers? How exactly do you leverage that strategy altogether, and execute it all?

At the moment, we write mostly in-house with occasional guest posts. We went through a long learning journey from SEO agencies writing for us to copywriting agencies, very expensive posts. We would pay like a thousand bucks per post as much. That sounds insane for some people I know. Then we had a great writer who worked with us for a while, and then we just mastered all this. At the moment, we’ve just taken this all in-house and producing posts. Just for context, we publish one, or two posts a month and we focus a lot on distribution. There was a great content consultant who taught us that, basically asked him three years ago, Arpit. That’s Arpit. He previously worked at Intergroom and had some data blogs. So Arpit Choudhary. We had a consultation. So, I asked Arpit, you had this successful content project, what would you do if you started from scratch? And he would be like, I would write twice as little and promote twice as much from day one. That’s what we did. All the primary keywords are covered pretty well, but we produce, at the moment, we’re focusing on the content that’s interesting to read versus hitting certain keywords, like really interesting pieces, opinion-based, or there is a range of lifecycle situations in SaaS, like selling your business and how you make announcements on that, or lifting your pricing and how you make announcements about that.

This all involves email. We have a series of posts that include those very SaaS-specific. We try to make this very interesting and useful to the readers, and we do that in-house at the moment. That’s also why these posts are heavily rooted in research. That’s much better done with a team that knows the industry like we did.

I think any wise SaaS company would try to keep the content generation work in-house because training third-party vendors, quantitative writers, or freelancers takes a lot of time and effort. I think in many ways it’s somehow better to keep it in-house. It works well.

I can tell you the reason why we don’t accept guest posts nearly ever is because whenever somebody wants to write for us, we say, oh, please suggest some topics. We want an in-depth email marketing topic. Of course, I know, but some of them are very serious folks. They can write well. They go back to us and tell us three topics: how to write good user onboarding emails, and a couple more. It’s very shallow in the minds of people. Everything is limited to just user onboarding emails. There’s so much more, but to know where to dig, it’s hard. Sometimes we would go and assign topics to guest writers. Sometimes I regret doing that and we rolled back our offering. Sometimes it turned out into good posts. To be honest, good posts are more like an exception. Many times, I said, Sorry, it just doesn’t cut it. We shrunk our guest posting volume. We focus on quality as a result. It’s been a lot of mistakes, but it’s also very fun to know that you put out awesome stuff. That’s so much fun.

I’m now lastly considering your background with UI Breakfast and Better Done Than Perfect. How does your podcasting experience influence or complement the mission and vision of Userlist?

I love podcasting. It’s a big part of our business, but it’s not that lead-gen channel that you’re imagining. It’s not that. Even though UI Breakfast is a very old, big show, we have four million all-time downloads at the moment. We just crossed that. That’s a ton. An average show that’s starting up these days is going to get a couple hundred listens per episode. That’s normal because it’s hard to grow. UI breakfast is huge, but it’s never been a direct lead channel for Useless. Better Done Than Perfect is a show that was created specifically for Users that’s been going on for about three years, I think. First, it’s amazing content for the readers because not only do we produce the audio, but we also write manual write recaps. We manually write recaps. We write great recaps that people can read. But most importantly, it’s a source of knowledge for us. Let’s say we want to learn from email marketing consultants. In 2022, we had a season dedicated to that. I interviewed 10 consultants in and out of their profession, how they approach things and learned certain frameworks. That’s immensely helpful material for further strategizing and writing and things like that.

Also making friends works. Try to establish a human connection with your guests. These are very secondary marketing benefits but provided that the publishing is streamlined. As a host, I mostly have to arrange the guests and meet with them. The rest is handled by our Marketing Manager. So given that the effort is so low on my side, it’s a no-brainer to keep going because it’s an endless source of joy personal connections, and education. I hope I answered the question.

Yeah, and do you take care of it? Because hosting to podcast is not easy to ask for sure. You need to reach out to the right people. There’s way too much effort from the two even production and everything, then promotion. Do you do all of this in-house or do you take some help from the outside as well?

The effort is not as hard as you might think, and it takes a different shape. UI breakfast is eight years old, nine years old by now. My inbox is flooded with guest requests. Through that, I get to meet design heroes of my childhood, basically, for the design world. Lots of great guests there. Some of those guests are more marketing-focused, so I root them towards BDTP if there is a need. That’s also a nice poll. For Better Done than Perfect, since it’s a user-based themed publication, when we work, I’m always on the outlook for interesting businesses or fascinating products. And when I see the fascinating product, I can think and maybe invite their founder to join the show. And the response rate of those is super high first because it shows that we’re personal connection. We have a nice production format, so it’s high quality. The response rates are close to 100%, I think. It’s not like going out there and recruiting. It’s more like cherry-picking and curating. It’s really fun. Again, you can see that.

How many? What episodes do you produce? Both the podcasts combined.

A month. For a couple of years, we’ve been doing two each. It’s every week, like alternating. Last fall, I think this August, this June, we started doing just one episode per month each. We slowed down a little bit. I go there and reassess because podcasts don’t bring in leads immediately. It’s always, oh, I do spend time on this. Shall I be doing something else? That’s why we decided to slow down this time, but it’s worth it to keep going because of the reasons I described. Every time, another one it’s always such awesome serendipity that I find something useful for our business in every interview and the same day that the recording takes place. We schedule recordings far in advance. But as always, I open my calendars. Oh, I have a topic X, and that’s exactly what I’ve been doing. Then I stumbled into some insights in the call, and it’s always so refreshing and nice. So literally works every time. I’m not sure. It’s that every piece of information should be timely and should be not just the right information, but the right information at the right time. That principle is fully realized in those times.

Thank you so much. I appreciate your time here. This was a really fun session for me. I enjoyed it a lot. I appreciate your time. Thank you so much.

Thank you so much.

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