Navigating Demand Gen and SEO: A Conversation with Nicole Siegal Fuselier

Thanks for having me. I appreciate it.

I think as we were just briefly chatting, I think what gets me excited is the challenge. Is the challenge, and I think across all the different companies, there’s a similarity around how teams are trying to come together and help identify what’s going to work. I think what makes me love what I do is I’m passionate about the relationships with sales and marketing and how you can drive growth together as one organization.

Yeah, what I think sets bonus leads apart is the fact that we’re thinking about how we can help the companies how we can help the employees, and how we can think about how rewards and recognition, can impact positive behaviors. Then when you add that with enablement and some of the new manager enablement tools that we’ve been rolling out, you can see how that actually can drive impact and performance. Right now, what’s happening with companies is they really want to understand how they can help drive behaviors in a very positive way and how employees also want that insight that recognition, and wan,t to know that feedback. It becomes this great mix of being able to identify how you can recognize folks, how you can drive credible feedback, how you can actually help enable your managers, and then you ultimately can help drive business impact and growth.

I think the standard channels that people understand and like to dive into, like SEO and organic, are the big channels we focus on. I also would say we’ve been leleaningeavily into our webinar program because it’s about for us, when you think about your audience, how are you going to get in front of them? A lot of the webinars that we’ve been doing have been in partnerships with some of the HR communities because we want to be where they’re at. Instead of always creating something new, sometimes it’s about knowing where they’re at and being part of that and being able to deliver content that’s inspiring to them. They are part of that community, but they’re also then coming and wanting to hear more about what you have to say. I think more and more that’s going to be happening as it relates to different types of communities and different types of, I’d say, Slack channels and other types of ways that people are collaborating right now. I think it’s even more important to understand where your people are at and go there. It’s not necessarily that you have to always create something on your own.

Sometimes it’s better to be where they’re at and leverage that channel.

It’s a very well-said statement because I think, first of all, I think attribution is only ever going to give you 70% of the information. Attribution is never going to be perfect. It’s just not possible. I know I’ve had this conversation a lot with leadership teams over my career around why is it not just math. I’m like, I wish it was, but it’s not. It’s because humans aren’t math. Things like webinars, it’s about what’s your goal with the webinar. And understanding how many of them are you bringing into your database. How many of those folks are net new? How many of those folks are you nurturing over some time? And understanding that sometimes the webinar is about educating them, and then they’re going to come back. I think right now people are very much like one and done, and they look at their last channel, and they’re like, Oh, great. This is what’s working. It’s my last channel. I’m like, Okay, it’s your last channel, but what other things did this person experience? It’s very unlikely that somebody is going to go do one thing and then be ready to buy.

That’s just not human behavior. I think sometimes people need to take the science or the math path that comes with attribution and apply some common sense. But I think when they’re playing that finance game, you see this and you see this, that’s what works. I’m like, That’s not. Can we just have some common sense around it?

Yeah, I would say focus on what content is going to resonate and what gets people excited. I will tell you, sometimes your first or second go isn’t going to be the answer. But once you find something that works, We had webinars that started at 100 people. Then once we figured out the right content, it started blowing up to 3,000 people every time we had the webinar. Then we started leveraging that and knowing that it was resonating. That for us was around manager enablement. We knew it. But think about what’s happening in the economy right now. You can almost know that managers are struggling. They have more work on them than ever before. What tools are out there to help them be successful? Not many. They’re taking on more responsibility, but they’re also the path for leadership to understand what’s working or not or what teams are working on. It’s almost leaning into what’s happening out there and providing insights and feedback and helping. I think then you could see the content. You can see how the content can make an impact, and then your audience starts to grow and you can see excitement around it.

I do listen to our customers, hearing from our customers on the things that they care about. In our case, we found out that our customers were already using bonus leads information to do some of this work in manager enablement, but they were doing it on their own. I’m like, We were all like, Wait a minute. They’re already doing this. Why aren’t we leaning more into that? Honestly, right now, leaning into your customers, regardless of what company you’re at, is the most important thing because they’re going to tell you how your product is being used and give you ideas of how they’re using it in ways that you haven’t even thought about.

Yeah, we participated in a lot of communities. As I was saying earlier, it’s really important to think about where they’re at versus where you want them to be. When you think about the different communities they’re at, like SHERM and HRCI, those are huge HR communities that we need to be part of. How you get part of that is by joining it and doing webinars within it, going to their events, but also just developing those relationships with them, too. Of course, we want to have some of our programs as well. But if you can do that as great partnerships, even if we can find some HR partners or some of our customer partners, those are ways to help develop that relationship. I was going to say relationships right now are another key thing that matters in co-marketing and partnerships because, again, everyone’s looking for how to optimize things, and you need to optimize the things that help drive that collaboration as well. In that community.

I think when I call myself a revenue marketer, the reason why I say that is because I’m very focused on how marketing impacts the business overall. Now, I’m not saying I think that some of the other elements of marketing are important. They very much are. I believe in brand and some of the other aspects that need to happen because honestly, that enables a lot of the revenue stuff that needs to happen. They don’t happen by itself. But the reason why I call myself more of a revenue person is because I love that partnership with sales, obviously, and how that works. But I also think about it in terms of my approach. I don’t believe in leads and MQLs. I don’t even measure them. I care. What I think about is, how I drive opportunity. I optimize all of my channels towards opportunity, which is a pipeline. I also think it’s important as a revenue marketer to have an inside sales team, so MDRs and BDRs report to me. The reason for that is understanding what’s working or not, and that was fast signals. Most MDRs and BDRs eventually want to become salespeople.

Knowing that and having them learn on the marketing side and help provide impact, it’s a way of helping them become stronger salespeople when they go through their career because they’re also then learning how to better partner with marketing. I think a lot of times SDRs and MDRs sit within the sales organization, but then there’s always that weird dichotomy between marketing and sales. My passion is around, how do you make that go away? How I’m currently compensated is based on pipeline and revenue. I don’t take make a salary the same way that other marketing people do, because if I’m compensated and inspired just like sales, now there’s no question of, Oh, she’s caring about her numbers and not about mine. I’m like, No, I care about your numbers just as much as you do. Because that’s also tied to my targets and my growth. I think there are very few marketing people who will go out there and take a number. That’s why I wrote an article about that around, I believe, that if you want to be a marketing leader in today, today’s age, you have to take a number and you have to be open to it.

One thing that we had to think about was, what’s our goal for SEO. Because there are different goals that you can have. You can have goals that are just around driving volume. You can drive volume to But if you drive volume to their site and then they leave or they don’t convert on that page and they go somewhere within your site, then I’m not quite sure SEO volume is the right answer. You also can focus on on SEO as it ties to, again, what I love, conversion towards growth or pipeline. I tend to lean more toward the SEO that’s going to drive conversion versus then growth. I usually start there. The reason why I started there is because I know what’s working and I know what to optimize. That’s learning how many people are searching on certain terms that are relevant to your content, looking at your content, looking at what your company goals are, and how you optimize that. When you’re talking about volume, sometimes you’re talking about going after terms that are relevant to your company, but they’re not the highest in converting terms.

Yeah, of nature, right? That’s why I first wanted to start this off with because there will be a lot of founders out there that’ll be like, I want all this traffic, and I want to use organic to drive all this traffic. I remember at one company I worked for, they wanted this term for us to use. If I say the term, it’ll be very obvious what company I’m talking about, so I’m not going to use the term. But the term was so generic that anybody could be that. I’m like, Yeah, I could put a lot of effort into that. But if I put effort into that, what’s going to happen is they’re going to just come to our site and bounce, and then that’s going to hurt us overall. It’s going to hurt our overall domain. I think that one thing that people need to understand is what’s your domain strategy. How do people look at your site? As things are happening, obviously, with email and email domains, you have to be productive of your site and you’re protective of your domain. I think my approach sometimes can be controversial because I think, again, a lot of founders are out there going after traffic and going after volume because, in their head, they’re like, Listen, it’s free.

Why can’t I get any more people here? But I’m like, But if you don’t follow that all the way through with, Okay, fine, you got more traffic, how long are they sitting on that page and are they actually converting, then that’s why I tend to optimize towards growth. I might optimize, and it could be PLG growth, it could be signups, and what percentage of those signups convert. It doesn’t necessarily always have to be sales as in the pipeline, but it’s about what’s your target and what’s your goal. I think SEO has many facets to it. I think you need to align with the company what’s the right thing before you go in and dive? Because I feel like I look at SEO as a house, and there’s many walls, and there’s many layers, and then there’s a roof. What are your goals? Then how do you design that house based on what you’re trying to accomplish?

That’s why I think over time, like some of the Google algorithms and stuff, I think over time, they recognize that. And once people go to your site and start bouncing, guess what? You start getting ranked lower. And then guess what? Then we start looking at how we can change the content to get higher. It’s a game. So if you focus on what converts, then you’re getting the right people versus just going after the volume of the traffic. Again, it’s my point of view. Like I said, there’s been plenty of debate and discussions on that. You just said, I think founders who have started off buying be using organic five or six or seven or 10 years ago, it’s changed, it’s evolved. But they got so excited about some of their quick wins that they may not understand the definition around all of that.

So Sorry, my computer, it’s because my battery keeps telling me it’s low, and I’m like, I’m plugged in. How can it be low? Sorry. So I was going to say this is how I utilize… I know you’re going to edit this. Can you just repeat the question so that way I can do it?

From a paid perspective, and obviously, I’m just giving you an example of One Piece I’m looking at, again, what is looking at what’s converting and being able to understand where I can test things and change my spending based on the information that’s coming in. The first thing I did, for example at Matterport, is everything was optimized toward MQLs and leads. As I said earlier on, I don’t believe in MQLs and leads. I believe in tying everything to the pipeline. Just by doing that, in the beginning, we spent an absorbent amount of money just going after trying to maximize leads and MQLs as much as we could. By utilizing the data, we were then able to identify and optimize what was converting. I was able to drop that spend in half because then I was only focusing on the things that convert. My then-paid strategy was about how to break off from there and understand what’s working and then tntdoat. But I immediately was able to get our budget under control just by focusing on the things that work. Now, again, what I said earlier, that’s 70% of it.

I don’t believe you can ever just look at the data and not actually apply to it and test it. Because I can tell you, for example, I’ll give an example of somebody who was like, We want to look at our ICP. If our ideal customer profile, let’s just say it’s between 500 to 2000 employees, that’s IRD as opposed to a 5,000 profile, Then why am I looking at paid and why am I looking at the audience size of 5,000 and below versus just 2,000 below? I’m going to pay more for a little bit higher because why? Because some of the companies that are at that I want to talk to are in that higher space. Just because they list that they’re a 2,000-person company, if I don’t think about some of these other places at a higher amount, I’m going to miss them. The conversion might be a little bit lower there, but it’s worth it because I can see the performance around it and I can see the audience that’s coming in and how that maps to our overall ICP. I think data is there to inform you to make common sense decisions and tests.

That’s what the data is for. I find one thing I also think is really important when we’re talking about data is I work a lot with revenue ops and business analyst teams that I have crossed my career. A lot of times, they’ll just spit out tons of data. Have you seen this? I’m like, I almost want to stop them and say, Okay, what’s the question that you’re trying to solve? If you just come back and spit out all the data at me, then I would be like, Okay, what does this mean and why? And what does that impact? I said, So where I’ve spent a lot of time with the revenue ops and the marketing ops teams that I’ve run is, let’s identify how we want to run the business? Let’s look at the data that we’re putting together and how that helps us make decisions around the business. BecaWhatound is sometimes they just provide you with so much much much data that you start making changes so quickly negatively impacting performance. It’s really important when you’re looking at the data to not just look at the data and go.

It’s about looking at the data and trying to understand how that data maps to what you’re trying to accomplish, and does it influences it one way or the other.

I’ve run both global teams, both where the team was actually in those countries. I’ve done it where they’ve been more centralized. And I think what’s an interesting strategy and approach is around when is it better to stay local versus when is it better to be global, and then when you apply funds around it. I can tell you where it was at Matterport, we started very global, but we didn’t have, or when I got there, it was very global. But it wasn’t a global strategy with local nuances to it. When I joined, I brought it back in first. Again, I’m not saying I brought it in in terms of the people. I brought the strategy back into what we were about. I did that on purpose because I could see the messaging and how we were communicating around who we were was so different. You could go somewhere else in the country and you’d be like, What are you talking about? And so by bringing it in closer first, we were then able to get alignment around who we are. And then as we started rolling it out and identifying the local things that we wanted to do, it became that much stronger and drove a bigger impact.

So sometimes I think it’s important to bring it back in before you go back out. And that’s exactly what we did. When I joined Matterport, for example, they had never hit their numbers, and they were a global team, but they weren’t hitting their numbers from a marketing perspective or a sales perspective. I’m like, nicely safe. This isn’t working. Let’s try something different. That was where I was like, Okay, let’s bring it back in. Let’s centralize it. Let’s get us all to where we’re going. Then when EMEA and we had Asia PAC and we had folks in Australia, it was around, how do we think about the local nuances that are needed that sit on top of that global strategy?

I think what gets people excited about Honestly is the fact that once you come in, you’re now part of our family. And we have a customer success team that are experts and love what they do. They’ll help you set up your instance and help you and help identify your goals. It’s not just a here, when, and done, and okay, now get it up and running. I think our customer success team, because they’re so invested in making sure that they understand what the customer is looking for, then they help them on board. It’s an onboarding process. We’ve got a great support team that will reach out to them and provide that support as needed as well. I think we have a philosophy around how you take care of the customers. We also have customer programs. These customer programs around how they can be more involved in where Bonalie is going. I could tell you from my time at Cisco, When I led the customer advisory board working with the leadership team, the thing that I learned the most about those advisory boards, and again, these were the people that made up 80% of Cisco’s overall revenue that we were meeting with globally around the world.

The common thing that I heard from all of them is they all had a point of view. They all wanted to provide us with feedback. The thing that I tried to encourage, it was John Chambers at the time in that leadership team, that if we took one or two of their ideas in these advisory boards and leaned into it, even if it was just one or two, what that did is it made them feel like they were part of where we were going. You impact them by giving them things that matter to them around their business, but they impact you and they impact our roadmap around where we’re going. It’s creating that sense of community. I feel like, bonus, it’s on that journey as well as how you become part of a community where it’s a two-way street.

I think there are some tools out there that are trying to get there. They’re not there yet, I will say. There are the markets and the HubSpot of the world that we’re all using. There’s a lot of stuff around AI that’s happening and about optimization and personalization. But I feel like they’re both very separate tools right now. I think gongs are starting to investigate more in that on the sales side. Adobe just came out with a product that would sit on top of their CRM automation efforts and experience the cloud. I think that space is going to get even tighter over the years, probably in the next year or so. I think that what gets me a little bit excited is how we can tie some of the personalization as it relates. I’m also a big believer, though, that we need to be leaning into AI. Don’t get me wrong, we need to be leaning into AI. But I also believe we need to be leaning into humans, and that’s never going to go away. I think that’s where people, as they’re leaning into the AI, there’s still this humanness of, Okay, if we’re personalizing content, you need to read the content that’s being put together, and you need to think about how that connects.

What I think AI can do for a lot of the work that we’re doing right now is it can get us 80 to 90% there, so we can move quicker, but it doesn’t replace that human. I think that’s what I’m interested in how do we get sicker, better, and optimize more? I think companies are starting to figure that out. I see some stuff in Adobe that I think is interesting. I see some stuff in Gong that’s interesting. It’s going to be an interesting space, put it that way.

Sure. So one thing, as we mentioned earlier, I think my career has been across different industries, and that’s because I just really love the challenge. I really love the challenge of understanding the industry and then how marketing can help come in and help drive an impact, and that impact typically being growth. When I joined Wurl, at that point, it was very much around CTV. That’s online television. That’s having people come to you and they pay a subscription fee. What WRL did was about how you do the infrastructure around that. It managed the distribution, it managed the ad placements around that, and it then connected you with Tubi and Freevi and all these other channels where people could watch the content. When I got there, Whirl and AppLovin were having conversations about an acquisition. Applovin is more of, I would say, an ad tech industry that’s focusing on mobile. Really what Whirl was going to be was that CTV arm around that. What I needed to lean into is understanding that this is going to be the bridge for AppLovin to be able to start talking in this CTV space, where it’s historically been known more in this mobile environment.

And so leaning into that and learning into what did that mean and what did that mean for the customers is starting to go out and start targeting new customers. And that’s where we launched a product called Content Discovery. Content Discovery is about how you find the content that is most going to resonate with the folks who you are online with. Then actually what we learned is by having it be both a mobile and a CTV effort, you got a much higher performance in in terms of your overall impact and conversion. Again, it’s about understanding the product and understanding the impact that it could have and then finding the people who are going to care about that the most. Whirl went through quite a transition as it was going through the acquisition into AppLovin and then how to find its place within that company.

I always think it’s important to constantly test. I think one thing I struggle with is when there isn’t this appetite to try and try new channels and try to dive in. Because as a growth marketer or a revenue marketer, I’m constantly thinking about how I’m going to hit that number. I’m somebody who lays awake at night and dreams about it in terms of how I’m going to approach that. I think what can be hard for a revenue person like myself is when you cut off that ability to innovate. For me, I always try to keep an arm in some of those new things that are coming out there and how Just even testing AI-assisted SDRs. Does that work? Does it not? I wanted to test it. I wanted to lean into that. I was one of the first people that Dewpoint Qualified and Drift when that first came out. I want to be in the new technologies and testing and learn from them. Why? Because it’s going to give me ideas about what’s working and converting. Now, I’m not saying we do 10 at the same time. It’s usually going to be one or two.

It’s usually going to be a percentage of the budget that I feel comfortable with that’s not going to impact our growth goals. But there’s got to be an appetite to do that because otherwise, you can start going flat. I could tell you, that when I was at Matterport, One thing I wanted to test was the concept of Matterport Academy. So while I was there, we had all of this great content all over the company in our product, in our YouTube environment. We didn’t have this centralized place around what was called Matterport Academy. And so partnering With the team, we created this new Matterport Academy space, and it became this amazing organic channel. Then it started becoming a customer referral channel. That was all based on a concept of how we could centralize and organize content better for our customers and actually for our sales team in terms of how to understand the product and speak to it better. But it ended up taking off and becoming something much more rich. I think that only came about because we wanted to try something new.

One thing I love about my career is that it’s It started with customers. That’s where it started. I spent 13 years at Cisco, and while I was there, I led the customer advocacy programs and Cisco advisory boards around the world that I talked about a little bit earlier. Again, it taught me about how leveraging them and partnering with them was inspiring. For me, I don’t think anybody wants to hear a company tell their story. The customers need to the story. The customers, in terms of the successes that they have, are what makes BonestlHonestly, Adobe, Matterport, any of and the companies that I worked at. They’re better at telling the story than we are. I think sometimes people ask me one of the things that I’m most proud of, and some of the things I’m most proud of are the relationships that I’ve made with some of those customers. I think about, again, my time at Cisco, I’m still connected with all of those folks. It’s been, I don’t know, eight years since I was at Cisco. But I was there for 13 years, and I helped build this program focusing on our customers and partners around the world.

There was a huge education part of it around with Networking Academy and World Wide Education. You just develop relationships. I think that’s where it goes back to when I think about a brand. I can’t tell you how many people think a brand is the colors and the brand is what you look like. No. Some people ask, Nicole, why don’t you want to lead the brand? I’ll usually bring in a design person, or sometimes the product or an organization will work on the design. I said, because to me, the brand, yes, the look and feel matters. Don’t get me wrong, it matters. But the thing that matters the most about your brand is what people say about you when you’re not in the room. That’s what your brand is. It’s not a color. It’s not a logo. It’s what people say about you, and your company when you’re not there.

I know. I know I’m being silly, but yeah. That’s why I think customers matter to me.

Your what statement?

I’m going to answer that in two ways, if you don’t mind, a little bit selfishly. I’d say the biggest challenge that’s happening right now is it’s really hard for companies to hit their targets right because I just think what’s happening in the economy in the world, people are afraid to buy and spend money. And it’s much harder to be in all of our jobs right now. It is. I think you have to own that. We all just need to know that take a deep breath and work together on that. When it comes to SEO, it goes back to understanding that the landscape is going to consistently change. Google is going to roll out new algorithms, and you need to be aware of that. Ai is coming in hard. People are not always going to Google anymore and trying to start looking at how to find things. There’s also this a lot of voice-activated search that’s getting pretty interesting as well, I think SEO is always going to evolve. I think people who want to be experts in digital domains, need to stay with it. They also need to be open I shouldn’t giggle when I say this.

They also should be open to the debate because I think it’s a good debate to have. To me, I would just ground it on, Okay, what’s our goal? Can we agree on our goal? Because it goes back to you having that debate, I could rate a ton of pages, and again, go after a bunch of key terms, and I could drive volume through the roof on our site. But if none of that converts, they go to that page and They go to that page and they bounce, or they go to that page and they don’t go to another page. Who cares? I think it’s about understanding what the goals are. That’s how I try to like my team. I think another thing that I’ve tried to do with my team is understand that teams all have strengths, and every person has a strength. One of the things that I’ve learned when trying to put teams together is helping people understand what their strength is and leaning into it. I think talking with them about what their goals are. I think for my teams, it’s always about, What are your goals? How do I help you get there?

One thing I think it’s hard right now is because everybody is so performance and impact-driven. A lot of performance conversations are around, did you get there? Did you get there? Did you get there? Did you get there? My head goes to, it’s not about did you get there? Did you get there? Did you get there? It’s did we agree on what those targets are going to be? Did we agree on how you’re going to get there? And did I do my part to help you get there? I think that’s what people are demanding right now. I think employees, it’s almost changing the performance landscape. Because I think in the ask them, you do these performance reviews, six months, one year, you get ratings. I think people are now saying, No, we need to do this together. We need to agree on what our goals are. We need to agree on how to get there. And yeah, I’ll do my part, but you need to do your part, too.

Oh. Rapid fire. All right, I’m ready.

It’s a true cliché, which is everybody thinks they know how to do marketing. I wasn’t expecting it it. I feel like that’s it. I think that could rub people the wrong way. Maybe that’s not the one that I think I should leave with. Can we not do that one?

Oh, shoot.

Can we not go there?

The weirdest thing that I have done. It’s probably one of my favorite stories back when I was at Cisco, all these folks came in from different places around the world, and this is when In-N-Out took off. Again, Cisco’s highest revenue-generating customers. These are CEOs from around the world of the biggest companies you can think of. They were so excited about In-N-Out broker because they’d never seen it before. As we were just leaving this fancy place that we were just atwere driving by and there was this in and out. I’m on the bus with all these folks, and they’re like, Oh, my God, can we go? Can we go? All the events, ad lgilogisticsople around me were like, No, how would we do that? That doesn’t make sense. How would you go? And I’m like, Look how happy they are. Let’s do this. So I literally got up and I walked down the aisle and I got everybody’s order and I called in ahead, and then I jumped off the bus and I went and got all the food and they came back in. And to this day, some of them still call me the in-and-out girl, and they’re so grateful for that.

I also remember this funny thing. Again, I was 28 years old, so I was still pretty young in my career. I remember leaving a voicemail for my boss, and I just said… Because the In-N-Out burger place was five blocks from the Cisco office. I remember calling and leaving her a voicemail. I said You’re going to get this expense report for a few thousand dollars from In-N-Out Burger. I just wanted to be clear, that’s not me pigging out. That’s me taking this. But I just wanted to give you a heads-up before you see this huge expense at In-N-Out Burger. The good news is that I totally laugh, but it’s an experience that still cracks me up because you think about these people, and then you’re making billions of money. But they were so excited to do something that was just so simple. Everybody else was like, No. I was like, Let’s do it. Why not? I just found a way to do it. I think those people just greatly appreciated it. I had to work with them for another… I have been doing the advisory reports for 10 years. They became family, and they remembered that, and they appreciated the fact that I gave them one of those experiences.

My point around it is it might be a really strange thing to do, but I feel like those are the things that create experiences with people.

I think from a failed campaign, I think one thing that I learned was understanding that it’s okay to pivot halfway through. I think sometimes in my earlier career, I could be very focused, No, this is what we said we’re going to do and how we’re going to do it. But as data and insights were coming in, I realized that it’s sometimes you need to pivot. I think that’s what got me so excited to join the startup world. I spent 13 years at Cisco, so I had this great foundational knowledge. But then as I started jumping into some of these other companies, I learned that the pivot is almost just as important. I think being open to that. Whereas if when you come from structure, and you can’t get more structured than a Cisco in these big matrix environments. Part of the reason why I left Cisco was because I wanted to learn how to do these things, and I wanted to put myself in situations. It was an opportunity for me to take that structure and realize it’s a It’s a great foundation, and I will never, ever say anything other than I’m grateful for that foundation.

But it also can sometimes limit you in terms of your thoughts and your ideas when you’re in that structure. That’s why I’ve spent the last five, or six years in the startup space trying to hone in on what’s different and what’s unique and how you can learn from the, adhit’s okay to pivot. Also, just to be clear, when’s the right time to pivot versus when it’s not the right time to pivot? I think it’s maybe I was growing up. I jokingly say that’s how you grow up. You have to learn from the lessons.

Oh, gosh, that’s a hard one.

No, because that’s more, I would not say LinkedIn. I would say my son’s not going to like this one. But I have been loving Instagram a lot more lately. And the reason why, I know it’s a little bit older, the reason why I like it so much is because of the way it’s connected me with my niece’s nephew. You said you’re asking on a personal level. My nephew just went to college, and he’s a freshman, and I’m curious to see how things are going. I can see him posting on his friends and showing his new college, but I’m not there. He’s in New York and I’m in California. I don’t know. I think there’s something to that. Again, it’s human, but it’s also, what’s the right word? It’s innocent. When I say innocent, it’s just nice. I miss that a little bit about our social channels. I feel like our social channels go a little bit to the extreme, whereas the thing that I like about Instagram thing and this example here is I like being able to communicate with my nieces just through images and just be able to see how they’re doing.

I recognize what they’re posting is what they want me to see. I’m not dumb, I get that. But at the same point, it just makes me smile to see how they’re doing.

Oh, gosh. I’ve been working on how to communicate some of the things that I believe as it relates to revenue and performance. I typically like to use AI as a way for me to brainstorm my thoughts and have it help me with how I articulate them. Because I find how I articulate it can go really into the weeds. I sometimes need the AI to help bring me back and help restructure it. I love using it as a way to be a writer with me at the same time and have it make suggestions. That’s how I’ve been using it a lot lately.

I use ChatGPT, but even I think Gemini and some of the other tools that are out there are pretty simple. But I like it as a way as if I’m having you on the phone with me as I’m writing because I think that’s what makes my content better, that I’m partnering with somebody. I’m trying to say this, but it’s not coming across the way that I want it to say. That’s a lot around how I use it in my day-to-day. It’s around how it helps me become a better communicator.

That’s cute. I like that. Make it humble.

Thanks for having.