Risk Ledger's Marketing Playbook: A Deep Dive with James Alliband

Thank you very much. Excited to be here.

Yeah, absolutely. How long do we have to answer this question? I started in IT, and I’ve always been in IT since college. It’s my first role. Started in support and service desk roles in consultancy, and then found myself in presales at Checkpoint. I had a really wonderful opportunity at Checkpoint I went to go to presales, but naturally still on the more technical side, but leading into sales at that moment in time. Did that for a few years, and really enjoyed it, but felt as though there was something necessarily missing, something I wasn’t quite finding in how I wanted to do business, if you will, in that sense. I had a wonderful opportunity at Checkpoint. I got a lot to my career there in the sense of being able to move into more, emerge what we call our emerging technologies role, which was much more of a sales and marketing role. We were responsible for growing that product set within the region and working as a team to market them together. And I then got introduced to what I saw today now as product marketing there. So that was my intersection into marketing. It was a very sales-led role, but it was a very sales and marketing role.

So we had an enormous scope to be able to do what we needed to do to grow the products within the region and how we wanted to market them. I did that for about 18 months and then I started to understand product marketing. At that moment in time, I took a real interest in product marketing. Read a few books during the Product Marketing Alliance as well at that moment, and started to consider the product market was probably the best next step for me. I had a really good opportunity at that moment to join Carbon Black as their first product marketer in EMEA and APJ. So basically covering covers everything outside of the US for the business through a product marketing angle. And that’s where I really stepped into marketing at that moment in time and started to understand this beast that is marketing if you will, and how organizations build out their marketing program and where product marketing fits through a few different product marketing roles, through Carbon Black into VMware, of course, as well, with the carbon black and VMware acquisition back in 2019, into VMware started leading a team of product marketers at that moment.

I then moved over to Tessian at that point to lead their global product marketing team and rebuild the team Tessian and then had a short, distant, but wonderful opportunity out of testing to go and lead the marketing team at Carbon Black. So I went back to Carbon Black. Went back to help them rebuild their business as we were trying to be spun off at that moment in time, so trying to become an independent company again. So I was responsible the head of Marketing for EMEA at Carbon Black. As I went back to rebuild the marketing organization right from the ground up, taking that out of VMware and completely rebuilding the processes. A new CMO in the business that I was working with, Caroline Yappie, and the full team. Didn’t quite work out. Carbon Black didn’t get spun off. Now part of Symantec. And I decided at that moment in time to look for an organization a little bit smaller, I think, and greater an opportunity, what I felt, probably some bigger problems to solve in different ways as well. I got introduced to Hayden Brooks at Risk Ledger, CEO of Risk Ledger, and just got bought into the vision straight away, I think, trying to take a more security and network approach to third-party risk management and to help organizations visualize their supply chain and understand their concentration risk while turning third-party risk management from being a mundane spreadsheet, point-in-time task, if you will, to more of a dynamic Inspired me.

I went through that process. I was fortunate to land the role in April, started in May, and I’m three months into the business at this moment in time, and we’re growing quickly. Building the team, building the marketing processes. It’s very much in the thick of it, but a lot of fun at the same time.

Absolutely, yeah. So very much in the product marketing element here. I need to talk about the time at Tessium also. Something that’s a really good example of when we drew to what product marketing meant within marketing and how that implemented and shaped a campaign, if you will. First and foremost, one of the things that we did successfully at that moment in time was we built what we called the product intersection within the business, which was essentially Product Management, sorry. Product Management looked after everything, engineering products, and we’re responsible for ensuring that the product was delivered and delivered into a position where go-to-market could be successful. And then my team, we were responsible in owning that go-to-market, not only the go-to-market strategy but also the end-to-end right from pre-build through to post-build. We were always responsible for that launch process, but making sure the product was launched and then we fully broke the KPIs. And in that perspective as well, in that specialization of the go-to-market strategy, one thing that I felt strongly about, one thing we built into the launch process was also what the campaign looked like and working with our peers across the marketing team, we all agreed very early in the process on how we were going to go to market, what was the messaging, how we were going to position that solution market, what channels were we going to utilize, or how were we going to promote it?

Did we have a point in time, an event, for example, that we could utilize to launch the solution? Was there a trade show, for example, that we could get some press attention? For example, we did a launch at RSA just over a year ago where we utilized. We did it the week before. So we took an opportunity to maybe get some media and press attention that we weren’t going to get during the week because of the size and scale. So all of their conversations, and I’m a strong believer, their conversations agreed upon very early in the process of launching a product to market. You build the campaign around it. So I think oftentimes, product marketing and product launches can be running a little bit of a silo. And it’s run the product, enable the sales, great. And then marketing is still running on their campaigns. I think it’s a great opportunity to start to wrap campaigns into how you’re going to bring that product to market, but also push the vision of the solution forward through a campaign and creatively really drive that campaign into the market as well. So we’re We engineered the process there.

It was a test and learn. We learned a lot as we did that as well. But for me, it was making sure that we got that agreement and process early. We enabled the marketing team as a whole early as well. To enable them to understand what we were trying to do Then secondly as well, to be able to design the campaign around that launch. When we’re talking early, I’m talking like 5-6 months ahead of time.

Yeah, one thing that I’m proud of is when we launched our Tessier Respond solution in the market It wasn’t directly me launching. It was somebody who worked for me, the product manager, that worked for me. But I felt as though at that moment in time, one thing that was successful about that campaign was we implemented a process that we felt was going to work and felt that we were going to drive, and I’ll talk about it in a second. But as a team, collaboratively, we all knuckled down and drove into that as well. So when we launched Tessing Respond, we were going from all the detect, protect, respond, and coach elements of the way that email security works in the market. And we were building out four pillars. That third pillar around respond and enabling security teams to respond to email threats. Faster and was that SOC-like approach, a security operations center approach in security, we felt was a really important narrative and something that they would… Our buyers would understand. So when we developed that process, what we first and foremost, as I mentioned earlier, built out that scope of what that value proposition looked like, what the market research also as well.

If it was sometimes discounted what market size or ARR we’re looking to generate upon this launch as well. So times that can be forgotten. It’s We’re like, great, we’re launching. Do we know how much cash we’re going to make on this? Did we have a hypothesis here? You must align these together. Are we launching this because it’s an expansion model to our existing customers? Is this a new market that we’re able to drive into? So very much on this side, we felt like it was an expansion model for existing customers. It was something that was going to enable us to expand into existing accounts and grow those accounts. So at that moment in time, we started to test some of the messages with our customer success team. I had a lot of relationships naturally with the customers, so we felt like that was a really good opportunity to drive that forward. We then got the marketing team involved. We built out the press release. We built out what the launch was going to be. I alluded to this earlier on the RSA launch. This was that one as well. We updated a bit of our brand the infographics that we’re using and our messaging, especially booth messaging.

So it was very evident and obvious as we pulled it out that we’d launch something new. So all of these elements here that we did, which were not just leading up to all the research that went in, but also on the day and during the week of the event, we made it very obvious that we’d launch something. We prepared everybody that was going to be at the event to have that messaging at hand. They were able to talk to it fluently, and it was very clear and concise, very much understanding the baseline of what we’d launched and then what we’d launched on top of that in that sense as well. I think developing that process, most importantly, was a lot of documentation. I’m a strong believer in what I call spinal documentation, especially with product marketing. Exactly, yeah. It’s very much like we went out very early and when we collected that research, it’s, Okay, let’s develop that positioning guide. How will we go to position? Let’s get agreed upon with our senior stakeholders in this business. So everyone feels comfortable that this is how we’re going to talk about this.

No one gets to the end of the process and says, Oh, this doesn’t make sense. It was very early that Our positioning guide was built out. We agreed upon it. We had a moment to say, Okay, that’s approved. Let’s get to the next step. What does our messaging guide, what does our collateral look like for the solution as well? Hierarchical messaging guide to cross-positioning is really important, especially in SaaS and platforms, as you will have a platform that you’re selling, but you have multiple modules that you also may be selling as well that can be sold together or separately. It adds a lot of complexity to that customer journey and how a customer is going to understand that as well. And we did a lot of message testing, as I mentioned earlier. Most importantly, developing that strategy was making sure that we had the launch process, we had a checklist in place. Bobby, my product market at that moment in time, very much owned that checklist. So we made sure that was an ownership area. We had one person in the business who owned the launch from a go-to-market perspective. And we drove through it and we collaborated as a team.

I think that sometimes, again, that collaboration element can be discounted there. We made sure that we, as a business, bought the product to market, if you will. We read the KPIs earlier as well. I think that’s something, again, that can be left off the table. We agreed on what we were trying to achieve as a business and with our senior stakeholders. So wrapping that all together, it was really important for us as a business to have a new product to sell, have KPIs that we agreed upon, position a message that we all agreed upon, and have a strategy in place. Everything else, I think, bred in between the collateral that we built and how we enabled the team is everything I would expect as a go-to-market strategy. But I’d summarize it down to really understanding what your value proposition is having a very clear idea and agreeing upon that positioning early. That was one of the areas in which win e developed a successful go-to-market strategy was understanding our value proposition and agreeing on the positioning. Making sure that those senior stakeholders bought into that as well was important because the last thing we wanted was for our leadership team to say, Hey, we don’t quite understand the value prop here.

That was something that we wanted to avoid.

Not necessarily an interest area. I think product marketers have to operate as project managers in some capacities, and it has to be part of the almost the DNA of a successful product manager. Product marketing is a fairly new role. I think in certain aspects, in certain industries, product marketing is either nonexistent or is a little bit undefined, or people don’t quite understand where that sits within the business. It’s B2B SaaS that’s developed that role more predominantly. Now you start to see product marketers pop up in banks and in financial services and outside of tech as well. I think I found a successful product marketer is somebody who grips a project and understands the ownership of that project and how to deliver that project from to end, so my go-to-market perspective. The project management side of it, I think project management in its whole, and I’m confident I can say this, sometimes slow businesses down. We have to balance that structure of how we go in and make sure we’re checking the process while also making sure that we’ve got the agility to deliver to the business quickly, especially in tech.

We’re just moving so quickly, and we’re developing and innovating so fast that our value proposition times just slightly change, or does it evolve in a row? It is a product marketer’s job to have a really solid grip on that and make sure they’re updating and iterating and then launching if they’re launching in a structured fashion, but they’re also not slowing down as well.

It’s a great question. Look, at the end of the day, if you’re reporting to the board or talking to the board, there’s going to be two areas that they’re going to be most interested in, and that’s going to be pipeline generation, and that’s going to be revenue on the back-end of that. And what’s the conversion rate of pipeline to revenue? The second aspect there as well is going to be, of course, your CAC, and your customer acquisition costs. So how much does it cost to acquire a particular customer? From there, the board is going to be not too interested in maybe the vanity metrics or the other metrics that you’re going to present across the business that you’ve been successful in. That shouldn’t discount the importance, though, of those metrics, dependent on the priorities that you have as a business. So as an example, if you’re trying to increase your LinkedIn presence, for example, increase content generation on LinkedIn and your subscribers, then a really strong metric is going to be your followers on LinkedIn. And that’s fine. Is your board necessarily going to be interested in that? Maybe as a narrative, but not necessarily as a strong metric to understand the business health per se.

So what I’d say about KPIs in answering the question is very much about how you’re understanding your stakeholders here. So first and foremost, it’s understanding what the board wants to see from the business. Are they really happy and keen to invest in marketing for example? So CAC cost isn’t too much of a concern at this moment in time. But they want to see that pipeline, 4X, 5X pipeline coverage, whatever it may be, and their higher conversion or conversion rates going up. So means the quality of leads is getting stronger and stronger over time. So really looking bottom of the funnel revenue and pipeline and revenue targets. To understand, first and foremost, what your stakeholders need to understand and where they need to judge business health, you can help them do that in marketing. And then secondly, to understand your projects and priorities that you’re focusing on at that moment’s time and wrapping the correct metrics around it. So a really good example is, let’s say we’re talking about paid ads that we’re trying to convert to the website. Maybe judging opportunity generation, we call this internally, sales accepted opportunities. Judging a sales accepted opportunity from a website conversion is probably not the right metric to use, or maybe it’s a book a demo of the website as an example, when actually what we may be trying to do is just enhance our website presence and people, our brand awareness, and utilizing our website as our central place for people to be able to understand what your organization does.

So I’m a really strong believer in understanding your projects and your priorities and wrapping the correct metrics to understand the success of that project. If you’re looking for conversion to the website from a LinkedIn app, for example, make sure that you’re utilizing website conversion metrics there and not using pipeline metrics or uQL metrics, there. So metrics themselves, really summarizing here, you have to understand, one, what your stakeholders, what’s important to them, what do they need to see to be able to judge business health? And then secondly, how can you measure the success of the projects that you have in place that’s going to differ from organization to organization, but understand and wrap the correct metrics at the stage in the front of you’re looking for with what’s going to contribute for you to have to double down. Oftentimes, if you’re not wrapping the correct metrics, you’re not going to get the results that you’re looking for.

The solution, I’m still trying to find it. If someone can send me that silver bullet over, that’d be superb. Look, I think one of the things we find in B2B tech and the SaaS wealth and cyber security in general as well, I certainly see this head-on, is we live in an extremely competitive space where you have a flurry of vendors, a flurry of thousands of vendors. You think about the terminology AI. If I go to another trade show and don’t see AI on somebody’s booth, kudos to them for not using language and verbiage that is just so generic. Overused, I thought, yeah.

Exactly. Massively overused. And I don’t think necessarily understand the terminology or the value. Most importantly, I think, and in answer to the question of how do you overcome these challenges? There are two elements here that I think can feel extremely strong as the biggest importance. One is the element around a very clear, as we were talking about earlier, a very clear and concise value proposition. People have to understand what problem you’re solving evolving for them, and they can resonate with that. And if there’s an emotional connection to that problem, and they feel that, and it hits them there, and it’s very clear, you’ve got a conversation in place. You’ve got something that person feels passionate about, and that starts right at the value proposition. If you don’t get that right, you can throw all funky creative ideas and messaging at something. But if that value proposition isn’t resonating with someone, then it’s going to be difficult to convince that person that they may We should have a conversation with you. So first and foremost, I think that is the biggest problem. And what I would often say, what certainly I observe in B2B SaaS is that value proposition sometimes isn’t as clear as what it could be or isn’t as strong in the sense of the message and that emotional connection to what it should be.

So I think that’s one of the areas that I would encourage anybody to look at and we didn’t pressure test that message and pressure test that value proposition. Is that clear and concise? And secondary to that as well, can your business talk to it? Can everyone in that organization pitch that 30-second pitch on their solution? Or can they talk about the volume proposition? Something we’ve done in the past, and I’ve said it in the past as well, is design that 30 seconds, 90 seconds pitch, whatever it might be. But can everyone talk about it? From engineers to your SDR team to your marketing team? Can everyone have the same message that they’re taking to market? It’s amazing the results in that clear messaging and that clear value proposition that goes all the way through the customer journey. And when that’s clear and concise, it makes it much easier for people to, and for our buyers, fundamentally, our prospects to understand what you’re delivering, why you’re delivering, what problem you’re solving, and fundamentally, the longer term vision of what you’re trying to build and grow into the organization. So I think that’s first and foremost, the most important thing.

Very much the product market, they’re talking to you there, but very much from that point of view. Secondly, when I talk about more of the creative demand generation side, I think looking off the menu, It’s a test-and-learn process. It’s not something that I think we get right the first time. But then looking off-menu and trying to look at what your competitors are doing, what other people and other organizations are doing, maybe what’s worked in different verticals, different industries, really analyzing them, trying to just be a little bit out of the box, a little bit different. How can we stand out here? It doesn’t always work. It’s a test and learn. But looking a little bit off-menu, looking at how you can be creative, maybe looking at if you’re doing… I’m thinking here more in the sense that if you’re doing an in-person, organized event that you’re doing, what’s the spark or element in that particular city that gets people interested? Or is there a certain thing within the city or a certain location within the city that is cool and creative and a little bit different, a little bit off-piece?

That you could maybe host an event that would interest people. Or whatever it might be, looking at a off-menu, off-piece campaign that you can run an event you can run that is just different from what people have done in the past. Now, naturally, that changes and can be done in completely different ways. But I think those two elements there, a really clear value proposition. They’re looking off and they’re new at times. They’re looking at different ways you can do things and trying and learning. I think the other area there is what I would say, and they’re overcoming them. Leading my team is, and I think this is probably wrapping together the most important element here is, as leaders, we have to give our team the space to test, learn, fail, grow, and succeed we narrow that down to not giving them the space to fail, ultimately, that can make the challenges much harder to overcome because we’re not willing to then step out of our comfort zone and try to do new things. So I think we have a huge responsibility, especially within marketing, to communicate artworks that not everything’s going to work, not everything’s going to land, and that everything we do is going to be successful.

But we’re going to balance that and we’re going to make a risk assessment of what we’re doing within the organization and the department. And then secondly, across our team, we’re going to give them the space to learn and grow and to have new ideas and try new things.

I think, A, I look at this difference from industry, verticals, et cetera. Certainly from what I’m seeing in cyber people are back out meeting again and very keen to do so. What I would say there is in-person collaboration, and learning opportunities. We’re starting to see a trend that this is a channel that is not only just working, but giving us immense opportunity to collaborate with people and to learn together. That’s something I definitely would say is we’re seeing a trend in that perspective as well. I don’t think people want to sit on webinar after webinar after webinar. They did that for a few years. That’s not to discount the power of webinars over some time, but I see a lot of trends. People wanted to be around people and utilize those opportunities to get out of the office and to learn or go for a nice dinner on an evening and collaborate on a roundtable, whatever it may be. There’s a lot of opportunity there. Certainly, we’ve seen that in cyber. We’ve seen that with our prospects as well. I think, secondly, as well, one thing we’ve seen a lot of, there’s a big news article just last night around Google and search.

We’ve seen a lot of creativity with ads, Google Ad Space, LinkedIn ads, and the different ways that we’re going now to market with display ads as well. I think that the market is going to turn its head over some time. I don’t know where that’s going to land, but I think there’s going to be a lot of opportunity and certainly trends moving from how successful is Google going to be as a channel long term. It’ll be really interesting to see that play out over some time. I think also as well, one of the areas that we’re seeing as a trend, or certainly we’re seeing as an opportunity space as well is utilizing trade shows in different fashions. I think oftentimes, as organizations, we’ve gone to a trade show, we’ve been present there, and we’ve used it as a brand awareness exercise. I think that’s great. But ultimately, how can we turn that into that demand generation channel and how can we utilize that? I’ve now seen a lot more organizations just be much more creative, really be loud, proud, and vibrant at these events, start to stand out, but also start to wrap other events around these events as well or make sure that people are just collaborating with you in your booth and utilizing that time to get your point of view across to your listeners and your audience at that moment in time and use those as a point of times.

As I mentioned earlier, a product launch is an example as well. Just really utilize those channels effectively and start to not look at them as just a corporate event as an example, but also utilize them as really an opportunity in a moment or an inflection point to be able to use that as a multiple channel event, if you will.

That’s a great question. I think first and foremost, what have I learned? I think, look, stepping from my days at Checkpoint, where I was just figuring it all out in a slight marketing role, but not necessarily a direct marketing role. But I figured out that first and foremost, one thing I figured out was marketing is not just events. I thought marketing was just events and being out there in the field and utilizing that marketing mix was something I felt really important. The second lesson I learned as well, which I think became paramount to me over the last few years, is just the importance of that because you’re understanding your customer journey as well. And oftentimes we’ll look at a campaign. I’ve done a campaign, let’s say, an ad campaign, for example. And the ad campaign creates a conversion, lands on the website, and great, that person’s done their job. One lesson I’ve learned over a period that I think has been so paramount is how can you collaborate and bring the whole team together on that particular campaign and look at that customer journey right from the start, top of the funnel, down to the bottom, the full of the funnel.

That integrated marketing and how you can look at that from an integrated company perspective. That was a big lesson for me to understand that and to understand not only how integrated marketing can work for you, but also, how you can then take your team on the journey together to a great campaign and see that customer journey in a holistic way. Another lesson I’ve learned, certainly on the product marketing side, is very much like understanding how effective, not only how an effective product launch should be that had to be done, as you spoke about earlier, but also how to really effectively launch and collaborate with a marketing team on a product launch as well. I think oftentimes that can be, again, a process that can be running silo and Looping the marketing team in very early into that process you spoke about earlier. That was a really big lesson for me. Just seeing the results of how you can get creative together, get those people in the room together, really understand how you’re going to take that solution to market. It was another big lesson as well. I think the other one, we spoke about this earlier, but the other one as well was on the KPI side.

We’re so ready at times to judge our performance on commercials. And while I’m not saying that’s not the right thing to do, ultimately, the business has got to grow and the business has got to hit their numbers. We probably don’t celebrate as a team at times. And this isn’t just specific to Rich Ledger. This is what I’ve learned over time those smaller trends and the smaller wins and really understanding them and wrapping the right metrics around them as well. For example, you just start to see month to month, your LinkedIn subscribers grow and you’re like, oh, great. Look at that. Why is that happening? What have you changed? What have you done? Just answering those questions, I think I’ve learned over time that those are really important things to understand. Wow, you’ve increased your content production on LinkedIn by 4X, or whatever it might be. And we’ve seen the results. This is grand. How can we double down on this? How can we take that to the next level? Understanding These areas, I think, is important. The final one for me as well, and this was a big lesson that I’ve learned is, that I think we all can Google the CMO playbook and we can Google the r marketing strategy or implement a marketing strategy or whatever else.

I think oftentimes, certainly what I’ve learned is getting into that business, and something I’ve certainly done at Risk Ledger at this stage is getting into the business and understanding the business, understand the dynamics. This doesn’t necessarily mean that what worked in the past may work or may not work before, but designing a strategy around that business and not necessarily just trying to implement the generic marketing strategy. I feel like that has been a big learning lesson for me and something that I feel has been helpful for me to take that into risk ledger over the last three months is understanding that business, understanding the go-to-market functions, stakeholders in the business as well is really important. Their opinions, learn from the people around you who have been in that business for two, or three years, have maybe been the first people that have tried to build marketing in the organization. And then really build a strategy that’s tailored for that organization. Organization because that will ultimately drive the success of that organization because that tailor is bespoke and fitted for them and not necessarily just the one-on-one playbook.

Sounds great.

Linkedin. No hesitation. My referee inside of me, James, the football referee, would tell you Twitter because then I can follow teams and whatever else. But the reality is I feel like for me, LinkedIn has just been a great opportunity to be able to collaborate, learn, and grow within my career. From that point of view, that’s always been just a great platform. I think the second part of LinkedIn, which I love, is it’s even better than cheering somebody’s day up when you see that celebration image of somebody’s got a new job and somebody’s got their started or they’ve had a promotion or whatever else. I think just celebrating that success together is wonderful as well. And LinkedIn does a wonderful job of doing that.

Other than the cats that are here fighting with each other, so I’m just trying to break them up. Biggest distraction. I think at times within organizations, we have too many channels of noise, whether it’s Slack, email, or a centralized content repository that people are collaborating on work and you’re getting notifications, but we live in a world of notifications and switching off from that or somebody needing an opinion or judgment on something when you’re halfway in the middle of the day can be quite difficult. For me, Slack is a challenge because I just think that we’re trying to collaborate as an organization. That’s quite a dynamic process, but at times you need to switch off and get your head down into things. That can be a challenge. It’s a challenge you have to be conscious about. Away from that, away from work, my football referee can step into my world now and again, and that can be a big distraction as well. And the kids, they get home and they can hear them around the house working from home as well. There’s plenty around, but the biggest one, I think, in day-to-day would be Slack for me.

I do a lot of my thinking when I’m running, so I go for running as well. I wouldn’t say it’s necessarily the weirdest place, but certainly do a lot of thinking on that. I’d probably say the weirdest place is while I’ve been referring, argument’s sake should be that I’m concentrating on the game. But sometimes you get so into the motions of doing what you need to do, and your mind spirals a little bit and you’re going to whatever else. I’ve been in the of a game thinking about a go-to-market strategy or thinking about something and then going, Wow, okay, I need to think about that later because I can’t think that. So probably that’s weird for me in that sense because I’m doing a different job at that moment in time. I probably should be concentrating on the game more. But yeah, that’s a weird spot am thinking of a marketing strategy on the football pitch.

Habit hold me back? I think it goes back to the distraction element. I think just, yeah, breaking, trying to continuously break. Look, I love collaborating with people. I love staying… I think a strength of mine is to be able to course-correct quickly and communicate with people and help people stay on top of things or just answer questions quickly to people so people keep doing their jobs. But that habit also holds me back because I step out of my work into the work and navigate around the business. So I say It’s a habit of just trying to be ultra-collaborative and staying across the business while not necessarily always balancing that with that deep work and getting the execution of a particular project done if that needs to be done. If that needs to be done, that’s something you have to stay very conscious about.

Oh, my days. That’s a great question. It was nothing It was fun. To be honest with you. I was testing a little bit of messaging in it and getting a few ideas for a messaging project that we’re starting and just understanding. I think it was something… It was about a week. I think it was something around, tell me a creative way to talk about third-party risk management or something like that after I’d fed it the messaging guide, and then it didn’t come up with anything funny if I’m honest with you. So it wasn’t probably the most wonderful answer, but yeah, it certainly got the brain ticking in some ways.

Thank you very much for having me. It’s been great just to chat through and sometimes revisit moments in your career that you don’t talk about so often.